Shebang:
What happened in the world at large in the forties and fifties and sixties
was that those garlanded Nobel-winning physicists also came to be blamed:
These are the men who made the Bomb. These are the dangerous people. We
know youngsters who were actually put off becoming physicists because
of the prejudice that that is what physicists did. In fact that's changed
a lot we're happy to say.
Pais: Ja I-I. Ja I do not quite know that I agree or disagree with what you've just said. That I don't quite know how to judge, because I knew all the people who were involved in the Bomb. I knew Fermi. I knew Oppenheimer. Rabi. They were just quiet human people. And they knew what people thought of them, and they listened with respect, but they didn't agree.
Shebang: Also they were clearly informed about Hitler and the Bomb.
Pais: Not that he had the bomb.
Shebang: No.
Pais: But that he might have the Bomb.
Shebang: And so there was a really powerful reason to build it.
Pais: Yes. That was the main motivation. Yes
Shebang: And the play Copenhagen [by Michael Frayn, winner of Olivier and Tony Awards] which you have said you saw in New York, what did you feel aboutit?
Pais: I am one of the worst people to ask for an opinion about that play, because I knew all three people so well. I knew Niels well, I knew Margrethe. I lived with the family for several months in their country home. I knew Heisenberg very well. In my office you'll see a picture hanging, a photograph which shows Heisenberg and me arm-in-arm. Right there. Now a playwright has the right to modify. He doesn't have to be historically, purely accurate. So I don't feel like pontificating about what I think too much. My own feeling when I saw Bohr being played was, well, it made sense to me. Heisenberg also made sense to me. Mrs. Bohr did not make sense to me, because, first of all, their meeting didn't take place in their home. Mrs. Bohr didn't see Heisenberg on that visit. She knew Heisenberg from earlier visits, but she didn't see him that time. But that's no critique of the play, because a playwright has the right to fantasize.
Shebang: Did the meeting happen here? [i.e. The meeting that is central to the play]
Pais: The meeting happened in the office down here, yes! In this building!
Shebang: The feeling about Heisenberg.
Pais: Ja
Shebang: People seem to be ambivalent about his conduct during the War. That somehow he -
Pais: Well, I can tell you. I'll show you, I have written about that.
Shebang: Yes.
Pais: But I'll tell you what I think about Heisenberg. Heisenberg was not a Nazi. He never was a Nazi. Point number one. Heisenberg was deeply committed to Germany. That's a different thing. He was offered a position in 1939 in America. And he said to Fermi [the great Italian physicist], 'I have to go back because the young people need me.' Which is not a dishonourable position.
Heisenberg was a man of great scientific ability. His science is superb. As a human being he had very little feeling for other people's sensitivity. He was a very insensitive man. And that's really all I can say about him. I mean he was amazed that he wasn't received with open arms during the War - because he was used to being received with open arms. He said to a friend of mine and this I know personally from the man to whom he said it, in 1941 when he came here [i.e. to Copenhagen], 'You know I understand that people feel ambiguous about Germany's role in Holland and Denmark, and so on. And I can understand that,' he said, 'On the other hand, in the East, in Russia and so on, these people don't know how to govern themselves.' So my friend said, 'Are you saying that you know how to govern yourselves?!' I mean it's very difficult. Heisenberg was not an ugly man. He was extremely insensitive to other people's sensitivities.
Shebang: You knew him after the War?
Pais: I knew him, yes, after the War.
Shebang: The enmities: they 'sort of' went away, or they didn't?
Pais: Well, cordiality became courtesy. The warmth went a little bit out of it. I was here with Heisenberg in 1950 -51 - 52. There was a conference here. [In Copenhagen]
Shebang: [Slight Pause] Now, wait a minute. We had understood that was the end of the friendship between Heisenberg and Bohr, whatever happened between them in 1941 [The subject of the play, 'Copenhagen']
Pais: Well, the end of the friendship at the level it used to be. But Heisenberg came back after the War. To the Institute. I'll show you a picture.
Shebang: We had no idea that was the case.
Pais: I'll show you a picture! It is taken in front of the Bohr Institute. [The building in which this interview was held] And I am there, which shows it is after the war [LAUGHTER] And Heisenberg is there, because he is holding my arm.
[At this stage there was a break while videotape was changed and Prof. Pais had a brief rest He invited Shebang's reporter into his office, next door to the interview room, for a moment, and this snippet of conversation took place]
Pais: Yes, you see, there is the picture. This is Pais. This is Heisenberg.
Shebang: Yeah. [Noticing of course that Prof. Pais is fifty years younger in the photo]
Pais: 1951 or 52. It's taken right in front of this building. And this is Princeton 1946. The bicentennial celebrations. ... Everybody, everybody was there
Shebang: yes [Looking at the famous faces]
Pais: It was wonderful... And this certificate? That shows that I climbed Mont Blanc! Yes!
Shebang: Yes?
Pais: Yes! Now that is the thing I am most proud of! [LAUGHTER]
[After a short break, the conversation resumes]
Shebang: We'll get out of your hair soon.
Pais: No, it is not a matter of getting out of my hair
Shebang: I know-
Pais: I am not so young any more, you know.
Shebang: We're none of us getting any younger.
Pais: I am 82! For God's sake, man you're a baby! [LAUGHTER]
Pais: Ja I-I. Ja I do not quite know that I agree or disagree with what you've just said. That I don't quite know how to judge, because I knew all the people who were involved in the Bomb. I knew Fermi. I knew Oppenheimer. Rabi. They were just quiet human people. And they knew what people thought of them, and they listened with respect, but they didn't agree.
Shebang: Also they were clearly informed about Hitler and the Bomb.
Pais: Not that he had the bomb.
Shebang: No.
Pais: But that he might have the Bomb.
Shebang: And so there was a really powerful reason to build it.
Pais: Yes. That was the main motivation. Yes
Shebang: And the play Copenhagen [by Michael Frayn, winner of Olivier and Tony Awards] which you have said you saw in New York, what did you feel aboutit?
Pais: I am one of the worst people to ask for an opinion about that play, because I knew all three people so well. I knew Niels well, I knew Margrethe. I lived with the family for several months in their country home. I knew Heisenberg very well. In my office you'll see a picture hanging, a photograph which shows Heisenberg and me arm-in-arm. Right there. Now a playwright has the right to modify. He doesn't have to be historically, purely accurate. So I don't feel like pontificating about what I think too much. My own feeling when I saw Bohr being played was, well, it made sense to me. Heisenberg also made sense to me. Mrs. Bohr did not make sense to me, because, first of all, their meeting didn't take place in their home. Mrs. Bohr didn't see Heisenberg on that visit. She knew Heisenberg from earlier visits, but she didn't see him that time. But that's no critique of the play, because a playwright has the right to fantasize.
Shebang: Did the meeting happen here? [i.e. The meeting that is central to the play]
Pais: The meeting happened in the office down here, yes! In this building!
Shebang: The feeling about Heisenberg.
Pais: Ja
Shebang: People seem to be ambivalent about his conduct during the War. That somehow he -
Pais: Well, I can tell you. I'll show you, I have written about that.
Shebang: Yes.
Pais: But I'll tell you what I think about Heisenberg. Heisenberg was not a Nazi. He never was a Nazi. Point number one. Heisenberg was deeply committed to Germany. That's a different thing. He was offered a position in 1939 in America. And he said to Fermi [the great Italian physicist], 'I have to go back because the young people need me.' Which is not a dishonourable position.
Heisenberg was a man of great scientific ability. His science is superb. As a human being he had very little feeling for other people's sensitivity. He was a very insensitive man. And that's really all I can say about him. I mean he was amazed that he wasn't received with open arms during the War - because he was used to being received with open arms. He said to a friend of mine and this I know personally from the man to whom he said it, in 1941 when he came here [i.e. to Copenhagen], 'You know I understand that people feel ambiguous about Germany's role in Holland and Denmark, and so on. And I can understand that,' he said, 'On the other hand, in the East, in Russia and so on, these people don't know how to govern themselves.' So my friend said, 'Are you saying that you know how to govern yourselves?!' I mean it's very difficult. Heisenberg was not an ugly man. He was extremely insensitive to other people's sensitivities.
Shebang: You knew him after the War?
Pais: I knew him, yes, after the War.
Shebang: The enmities: they 'sort of' went away, or they didn't?
Pais: Well, cordiality became courtesy. The warmth went a little bit out of it. I was here with Heisenberg in 1950 -51 - 52. There was a conference here. [In Copenhagen]
Shebang: [Slight Pause] Now, wait a minute. We had understood that was the end of the friendship between Heisenberg and Bohr, whatever happened between them in 1941 [The subject of the play, 'Copenhagen']
Pais: Well, the end of the friendship at the level it used to be. But Heisenberg came back after the War. To the Institute. I'll show you a picture.
Shebang: We had no idea that was the case.
Pais: I'll show you a picture! It is taken in front of the Bohr Institute. [The building in which this interview was held] And I am there, which shows it is after the war [LAUGHTER] And Heisenberg is there, because he is holding my arm.
[At this stage there was a break while videotape was changed and Prof. Pais had a brief rest He invited Shebang's reporter into his office, next door to the interview room, for a moment, and this snippet of conversation took place]
Pais: Yes, you see, there is the picture. This is Pais. This is Heisenberg.
Shebang: Yeah. [Noticing of course that Prof. Pais is fifty years younger in the photo]
Pais: 1951 or 52. It's taken right in front of this building. And this is Princeton 1946. The bicentennial celebrations. ... Everybody, everybody was there
Shebang: yes [Looking at the famous faces]
Pais: It was wonderful... And this certificate? That shows that I climbed Mont Blanc! Yes!
Shebang: Yes?
Pais: Yes! Now that is the thing I am most proud of! [LAUGHTER]
[After a short break, the conversation resumes]
Shebang: We'll get out of your hair soon.
Pais: No, it is not a matter of getting out of my hair
Shebang: I know-
Pais: I am not so young any more, you know.
Shebang: We're none of us getting any younger.
Pais: I am 82! For God's sake, man you're a baby! [LAUGHTER]
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