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Jack: It's as obvious as it can be. If you can't see that. No this is really. [Enrique is laughing] Enrique: Oh yeah. Jack: You really can't see it? Enrique: You know its…I think people will ultimately behave…I don't know. I mean I honestly don't know, yeah. Jack: Okay, let me tell you what I see. Enrique: Okay. Jack: What I see is these guys are just interested in the science, right. That's what they want you to tell them about Enrique: Yeah. Jack: Either you can do it or you can't, okay? You can clearly do it. Your presentation was brilliantly done in any case, but at the end of every presentation these guys have asked questions and some people have been pretty much destroyed by the questioning. Enrique: Sure, yeah that's, that hurts, boy I hate to see that. Jack: But it doesn't happen to you. Enrique: Oh but it has. [Small chuckle] Jack: Yes? Enrique: It has, it has, it happens to everyone. It's almost like an initiation fee. [Chuckling] Jack: Right. Okay, but you’ve paid your initiation fee. I'm sure it happened And there are thousands of examples of people to whom it happened and who have fought on. You're at the stage now where actually you probably don't have to fight on. These guys - from what I can see — they really respect and rate you. And they rate you because what you do is good. That's from what I can see. Enrique: Oh that's pleasant then. Jack: [Laughter] You don't know that? You don't see that? Enrique: I don't see it- I don't see them respect. I guess I'm most affected by the way I see that they disrespect each other. Maybe its professional, and maybe some feel it’s their obligation and their duty; but some of these people are just outright mean [Small chuckle] you know. Jack: Well if they don't agree with the theory then they are bound to argue with it. Enrique: Yeah, and I understand that some people might feel that that's their responsibility. But I guess its maybe that I lack faith in people’s sincerity. Jack: Perhaps these guys have a very strong envy for you I think they might envy you for a lot of things. First of all youth, or relative youth. You’re kind of the next generation so to them, you are someone to be cherished. They don't know what your going to do, they don't know what your going to say, what you’re gonna wear but they’re fine with that, it seems to me, in fact they love it. Enrique: Hmm. Jack: You do understand that? There ‘s something like that going on. Anyone sensible would see something of that. Enrique: [Laughing] I'm not sensible... I know. Yeah I mean that's nice, its romantic and I wish it was true and it’s probably true, but there still seems to be this strange exclusion theory. It’s almost like you have to prove yourself you know. Jack: Yeah, right! And there's probably nothing wrong with that. Enrique: And - Jack: Hey, hold on a sec. You’re a scientist, and having to prove yourself is fair. Enrique: Right! Yeah that's true, I guess it’s a question of degree. Maybe its because I want to be — Jack: What you want to be Enrique: Right. ‘ Jack: We all know what it’s like to be young and to be ambitious. And what you've done is: you haven't sacrificed anything, some people do it the other way, they kiss ass. Enrique: Yeah, I can't kiss ass man [Laughter] Enrique: No, I can't do it no matter how much I try. Jack: No, but it was great the way you know one of the gurus in the field had his hand up to ask a question and you said "no not you man." Enrique: ‘You go last’, yeah. I mean cause you’ve got to save the best for last, basically. Jack: Yes but you know he's the kind of guy who could ask you a question and flatten you. Enrique: Yeah! Jack: You've seen it happen. Enrique: Yeah, that's right [Small chuckle] he's clever, he's smart, he knows this material better than anyone. So I gotta save it for last because it the potential for it to trip me up is there, and he's the best, there's no arguing about it, he's the father of the field and he's still done arguably the best work. The way I see it... Ultimately people will be remembered for their character and not their science and if you are rude, people will remember that you are rude and aggressive and mean, more than they will remember you for your science. Jack: Have you experienced that? We have deliberately not named any names here. But have you experienced that from some of those guys? Enrique: I think a lot of people here are aggressive, but I don't think that they’re malicious about it. I think it’s noble in a way because they probably feel that its their duty to make sure that they keep the field pure and that it isn't tainted with crap and shit work, where all you need is a bad idea to change 10 or 20 years of science. Jack: Right. Enrique: You know Lamarck changed peoples’ perception of evolution for decades and it just inhibited progress. So when someone is presenting something that is clearly problematic, there must be some sense of responsibility for them to say ‘Wait, this is not true this does not apply’ because the people that aren't fit to judge will be biased in their thinking. Jack: That's right. I also think that these guys are simply listening very hard; they are paying attention. Enrique: But I also think that there's a certain need for courteousness. I mean I would pull them aside afterwards and say there's a problem with this - unless it was the main point they were making, but it seems sometimes people are just you know - Jack: They just interrupt ... he said, interrupting. Enrique: They interrupt and it’s almost as if they have something to prove. That could be style, that could be mannerism. And if you'll see these people the way they behave when they’re in the audience, that’s how they behave when they’re giving a presentation quite often. Jack: Right. Enrique: So in that regard they should be applauded because it is a form of self-expression. [Starts chuckling] Jack: That's right. But what about you? Do you have any thoughts about what you'd like to do with your science and with your life? Enrique: I want, with science I want more than anything to get more people involved in science. I just think I’m lucky, I mean I really feel lucky that I had people show me what science could be, because it’s a thin line between working in a gas station - or working in a factory - and becoming a scientist. I couldn't tell you when it happened, but certainly the potential to go either way was there. I wasn't destined to become a scientist. I got here because people showed me the way -literally showed me the way. So now I teach: every semester, I teach an entire semester, and that's my goal: to teach people so that they can at least become aware of what is out there. Especially minorities you know — ethnic and economic minorities — I am talking about people whose parents aren't professionals, people who are unaware of what's out there just because they've never seen it. Jack: Have you ever been in the media? Have people who done pieces about you for the papers? Enrique: When I graduated my Ph.D. [Small chuckle] - No, actually to answer your question: no. Jack: You would be a natural on television. Enrique: I've done a bunch of stuff you know with teaching. To answer your question, though, the most relevant thing that I did was when I graduated my Ph.D. I was the commencement speaker at the Johns Hopkins Medical School. I told these people and my graduating classmates about the importance of helping the children, and teaching them about the potential to do well, because the poor children in East Baltimore - who I brought with me — the difference between them and me is just in the opportunities that they have had. ‘Cause they’re just as smart.
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